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My guest for Episode #514 of the Lean Blog Interviews Podcast is Hugh Alley, an author and consultant. He divides his time between coaching senior operational leaders in continuous improvement, training front-line leaders in core supervisory skills, and designing industrial facilities.
An industrial engineer, he has run three manufacturing and distribution firms, and a department in a government agency, teaching skills to over 1,000 front-line leaders.
He has written two books: Becoming the Supervisor: Achieving Your Company's Mission and Building Your Team, and The TWI Memory Jogger.
He frequently speaks about supervision, quality, lean manufacturing, and Toyota Kata. From his home near Vancouver, Canada, he helps clients across North America.
In today's episode, we explore the power of TWI (Training Within Industry), its impact on building trust and improving workplace culture, and stories of real-world applications in manufacturing and sports. From reducing cycle times to fostering better leadership, this episode covers key lessons in Lean methodology. Tune in to hear about Hugh's Lean origin story and his experiences in applying Lean principles across various industries. Don't miss out on a thoughtful discussion that blends Lean, leadership, and even hockey!
Questions, Notes, and Highlights:
- What kind of government agency did you work for?
- How did you reduce lead times for occupational disease claims?
- What is your lean origin story? Where, when, and why were you introduced to lean?
- Was the word “Kaizen” used in your early lean experiences?
- Is job relations typically the starting point in TWI, or does it depend on the culture?
- What parallels do you see between sports coaching and leadership in the workplace?
- How can you tell if a workplace problem is due to tactics, teamwork, or culture?
- What role does continuous improvement play in sports teams' success, and can it happen game to game?
- How do you see the role of fear in leadership and coaching, and what impact does removing a “bully” leader have on a team?
- How can job instruction and job relations contribute to better workplace culture and performance?
- How do you approach the challenge of hiring the right people and fitting them into a lean system?
- How did TWI help one of your clients shorten training times and reduce bad product?
- What opportunities do you see for companies to create “practice days” similar to sports teams?
- How do you convince leaders to care about improving their supervisors' skills?
- What role does a coach or leader play in creating the right context for their team to succeed?
- What do you think makes a great player transition into a great coach?
- How do you use the TWI model to break down jobs and help people learn faster?
- What's your take on benchmarking against others in the industry?
- How did you help reduce patient waiting times in a medical lab by aligning priorities?
- Was Wayne Gretzky's coaching career unsuccessful, or did he just pick the wrong job?
- How do you translate great skills into effective coaching, and how does TWI help with that?
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Episode Summary & Article
The Role of Industrial Engineering in Continuous Improvement
Introduction to Industrial Engineering and Lean Practices
Industrial engineering is a dynamic field focusing on optimizing complex processes, systems, or organizations. Professionals within this discipline work to improve quality and productivity, often implementing lean practices to accomplish these goals. Lean methodology, initially derived from the Toyota Production System, emphasizes value creation for the customer with minimal waste. This approach is not only applicable in manufacturing but can also be widely adopted across different sectors, including government agencies.
Lean Principles and Influence
Lean principles revolve around continuous improvement, waste reduction, and value creation. These principles are actionable through various methodologies such as Kaizen, which means “change for the better” in Japanese. It emphasizes small, incremental changes rather than giant leaps. Real-world applications, like reducing lead times from six months to six weeks in a manufacturing firm, illustrate the efficacy of lean principles. Over a brief period, the business could significantly optimize its production rate, highlighting the power of minor yet consistent adjustments.
Coaching and Training in Lean Manufacturing
Training Within Industry (TWI)
Training Within Industry (TWI) has been a cornerstone for efficiently transferring essential skills within the workforce. This program was developed during World War II to train a large number of workers quickly and effectively. It encompasses various modules, such as job instruction and job relations. These tools, especially job relations, can drastically change the workplace environment by fostering better communication and collaboration, thus promoting a healthier culture.
Role of Supervisors and Frontline Leaders
Continuous improvement is often driven by the frontline leaders and supervisors. Their involvement is crucial in identifying inefficiencies and guiding their teams through the improvements necessary for smoother operations. Training these leaders can yield substantial gains. Over a thousand frontline leaders, trained in core supervisory skills, demonstrate how a targeted educational initiative can amplify an organization's productivity and morale. By focusing on key roles, organizations ensure that the ethos of continuous improvement cascades from top-level planning to on-the-ground execution.
Addressing Cultural and Behavioral Barriers
Cultural or behavioral barriers, notably a culture of fear propagated by certain supervisors, can stifle overall progress. Eliminating such toxicity and replacing it with a culture emphasizing collaboration, respect, and mutual goal achievement can lead to immediate positive impacts. The analogy to sports coaching, where a new coach can instantly uplift team morale, aptly illustrates this phenomenon. In businesses, addressing these soft skills can be as impactful as technical improvements.
Real-World Applications
From Government Agencies to Manufacturing Firms
Continuous improvement and lean principles are not restricted to manufacturing alone. Hugh Alley's work with the Workers Compensation Board in British Columbia on reducing occupational disease claim lead times from 100 days manifests how these methodologies are universally applicable. Regardless of the sector, everything is a process that can be coached, improved, and optimally executed.
Lean and Sports
Drawing parallels between lean practices in business and sports can be enlightening. In sports, hiring a new coach can drastically change a team's performance based on the culture they foster and their approach to team strategy. Similarly, transitioning from mass production to lean manufacturing involves an organization-wide shift in mindset. The systemic change from a traditional “run-to-demand” approach to lean requires buy-in at every level, starting from top leadership down to every individual contributor.
Practical Implementation and Challenges
Skill Gaps and Training Needs
The modern era brings its own set of challenges, particularly when recruiting and training a skilled workforce. Unlike the more uniform skill set of workers from previous generations, today's workforce often includes a vastly varied range of experiences and capabilities. Training programs need to account for these diverse backgrounds and ensure that foundational skills in industrial applications are effectively taught.
Balancing Immediate Needs with Long-term Goals
Organizations must strike a balance between addressing immediate operational needs and investing in long-term improvement strategies. Like sports teams that can't just trade players to fix short-term issues, companies can't overhaul their workforce to expedite improvement processes readily. They must work within their existing structure, training and optimizing from within while developing a supportive culture focused on continuous improvement.
By addressing these multifaceted challenges and leveraging the principles of lean manufacturing, organizations can drive significant improvements in both efficiency and culture. Whether in a manufacturing unit or a government agency, the focus rests on enhancing processes and empowering people to create a more streamlined and productive workflow.
Emphasis on Job Instruction in Modern Contexts
Continuing from where we left off, job instruction is indeed as critical today as it was during the era of its inception. Contrary to what some may believe about older methodologies potentially becoming obsolete, processes like job instruction have only grown in relevance. Take, for example, control charts, which were also developed around the same period; they remain indispensable in today's high-demand environments that require impeccable process conformance and product quality.
Job Instruction for Skill Adaptation
Job instruction stands out by effectively bridging skill gaps, even for individuals who come with significant capabilities from different contexts. Through structured training regimes, new employees can adapt to role-specific demands quickly, significantly reducing the lead time to become productive contributors to the organization. Modern examples also demonstrate the profound impact of these techniques. For instance, manufacturing firms have seen their onboarding processes shrink remarkably from months to mere weeks, reducing errors and ensuring smoother transitions.
Sporting Analogies in Lean Practices
The analogy of sports, particularly hockey's power play strategies, enriches the understanding of lean practices and continuous improvement. Just like the Edmonton Oilers methodically practicing two-on-one or three-on-two man situations to perfect their power play, businesses need to focus on incremental skill development and consistent methodologies. This approach ensures employees at all levels, irrespective of their specific roles, understand and execute strategies uniformly.
Importance of Training Days
One of the striking insights from sports is the concept of practice days or training camps, which unfortunately are not commonplace in business scenarios. Manufacturing and other continuous-operation industries can take a leaf out of Toyota's playbook. Toyota's approach, including fitness training and foundational skills before deploying workers fully, exemplifies a parallel to pre-season training in sports. This method has proven effective in enabling new employees to contribute efficiently right from the get-go.
Creating Capacity for Training
Creating opportunities for such training days within an everyday operational environment is indeed challenging but achievable. For example, improved process methodologies can lead to scenarios where fewer employees are needed to achieve the same output. This newly available capacity can then be pivoted towards training and skill development, mimicking the results-oriented practice sessions sports teams engage in.
Higher Supervisor-to-Employee Ratios
A critical impediment in most North American companies is the high ratio of doers to leaders. Effective continuous improvement hinges on the capacity of frontline leaders to offer hands-on coaching, feedback, and support. However, when supervisors are spread too thin, their ability to fulfill these roles diminishes. In extreme cases, supervisors are responsible for as many as 80 employees, rendering meaningful interaction and improvement initiatives impractical.
Inspired Leadership and Cultural Change
Occasionally, adopting successful external methodologies–akin to sports teams replicating winning strategies–can catalyze transformative change. However, merely copying playbooks, whether from Toyota or another success story, does not guarantee success. Real change demands vision and the ability to adapt these principles creatively within one's unique operational context. Directors and leaders can drive this change by initiating small but impactful pilot projects, which, when successful, can scale and influence broader organizational practices.
Balancing Short-term Actions with Long-term Visions
Organizations sometimes suffer from taking shortsighted actions like short-term layoffs, which, while appearing to save costs, disrespect employees' commitments and do little for long-term sustainability. Lean philosophy offers an alternative: use downtimes for continuous improvement and skill development, ensuring employees are meaningfully engaged even during low-demand periods. This approach not only maintains morale but can also yield productivity gains when operations resume.
Optimal Talent Utilization
Taking inspiration from professional sports, where a range of specialized coaches focuses on different aspects of the game, businesses can explore parallel practices. Whether it's through practices for specific tasks or coaching for strategic roles, the focus should be on utilizing talent efficiently. Instances from the sports world like the Oakland A's ‘moneyball' strategy demonstrate that competitive advantages often arise from unique talent identification and utilization practices, rather than mere financial might.
Flexible Pay Structures and Employee Engagement
Balancing competitive pay structures with robust coaching and development programs can enhance employee retention and performance. Companies need to decide strategically whether to position themselves within the 25th to 75th pay percentiles and justify such decisions by offering other forms of value–such as career development opportunities and a positive work culture.
In essence, the continued success of industrial engineering and lean practices lies in adaptive strategies, effective coaching, fostering a supportive culture, engaging employees, and harnessing analogies from sports to refine and perfect business processes. The journey towards continuous improvement is, indeed, continuous–marked by iterative learning, adaptation, and innovation.
Job Satisfaction and Employee Retention
The significance of job satisfaction in retaining employees cannot be overstated. Often, employees leave companies for seemingly minor pay raises offered by competitors. However, this trend brings to light a more profound issue–workplace culture. If employees feel genuinely valued and engaged, the nominal differences in pay may not be a significant factor in their decision to stay or leave.
An illustrative example involves a company that had undergone a cultural transformation. Previously, the company had been struggling with high turnover rates due to a toxic work environment. However, a shift in leadership and a focus on improving job relations changed the narrative. The company implemented foundational principles such as giving credit where it is due, keeping employees informed about changes, and treating everyone with respect. This cultural shift led to former employees returning to the company, even at lower pay rates, purely because they appreciated the improved work environment.
Methodologies for Coaching and Skill Development
The parallels between coaching in sports and corporate settings offer insightful methodologies for improving performance. Take Ted Williams, one of the greatest hitters in baseball history. Despite his remarkable skill, translating his expertise into effective coaching was challenging. This phenomenon can be attributed to the nuances and intricacies involved in skill transfer. Williams had a blend of conscious and unconscious competence, making it difficult to break down his techniques into teachable components.
However, the concept of job instruction can address this challenge. Historical instances, like the training of lens grinders during World War II, exemplify this. The training, which traditionally took five years, was optimized through careful analysis and instructional breakdown, reducing the time to mere days. This structured methodology can be applied to various roles, enabling quicker proficiency and skill development.
Continuous Improvement and Advanced Skill Development
Continuous improvement is a cornerstone of lean practices, but it's often misunderstood. Organizations might focus on benchmarking against industry standards rather than striving to be better than they were yesterday. The true benefit of continuous improvement lies in the relentless pursuit of becoming marginally better each day. This focus shifts the mindset from external comparisons to internal growth and development.
Take, for example, the sport of baseball, particularly in pitching. Modern training techniques have evolved to the point where almost every pitcher can throw at high velocities consistently, thanks to biomechanical analysis and precise training methods. Similarly, in business, breaking down complex tasks into smaller, manageable components can lead to significant improvements in performance over time.
Frontline Leadership and Incremental Changes
Frontline leaders play a pivotal role in driving incremental improvements. The philosophy behind job methods is that small changes, when consistently implemented, can have a substantial impact on overall efficiency. Whether it's rearranging equipment or refining task sequences, these minor adjustments can lead to considerable improvements in operational efficiency.
An example from a medical lab demonstrates this well. Initially, the team had no standardized process for prioritizing tasks, leading to inefficiencies. Once a uniform set of priorities was established, patient wait times were significantly reduced. This scenario highlights how small, well-considered changes can enhance productivity and morale.
Coaching and Skill Transfer in High-Performance Environments
Coaching and skill transfer are crucial, whether in sports or business. The story of a rowing coach who could turn an athlete into an Olympian with “2 million strokes” underscores the importance of consistent, refined practice. Applying a job instruction model can expedite this process without compromising quality. By breaking down tasks into their fundamental components, coaches can teach techniques more effectively and efficiently.
The Importance of Role-Specific Training
Role-specific training is essential for maximizing potential. Drawing from sports again, consider how athletes like sprinters focus on optimizing their first few steps. Similarly, businesses can analyze and refine specific roles and tasks, ensuring that every step adds value and reduces waste. For example, training employees on the most efficient way to set up machinery or handle specific tasks can lead to significant gains in productivity and quality.
Cultural Shifts and Organizational Success
Cultural shifts within an organization often determine its long-term success. When employees understand and embrace their roles, productivity soars. This is not about large-scale investments but about fostering a supportive environment where every team member knows their importance and has the tools to contribute effectively. Like a sports team winning a championship, an organization with a cohesive, supportive culture can achieve remarkable results.
By focusing on these strategies, businesses can harness the power of effective coaching, structured training, and continuous improvement, creating an environment where employees are motivated and engaged. This holistic approach not only drives performance but also ensures sustained organizational growth and success.
The Role of Leadership in Employee Engagement
Employee engagement is intricately linked to the quality of leadership. Leaders who are adept at inspiring and motivating their teams not only boost morale but also significantly enhance productivity. High engagement levels often translate to lower turnover rates, as employees feel their contributions are meaningful and valued. Drawing from examples in sports and military training, effective leaders are those who provide clear guidance, constructive feedback, and unwavering support to their team members.
Consider a football coach who meticulously studies each player's unique strengths and weaknesses, then tailors practice drills to optimize performance. In a corporate setting, a similar approach can be applied by conducting regular performance reviews and offering personalized development plans. The focus should be on fostering an environment where employees are encouraged to take ownership of their roles and are provided with the necessary resources to excel.
The Significance of Acknowledgment and Recognition
The simple act of acknowledging and recognizing an employee's efforts can have a profound impact on their job satisfaction. Recognition doesn't always have to be monetary; often, a genuine verbal acknowledgment or a public commendation can suffice. When employees see that their hard work is noticed, it bolsters their commitment and compels them to continue performing at high levels.
A tech company, for instance, implemented a “Kudos” system where team members could give digital shout-outs to colleagues for their efforts. This not only improved the internal culture but also encouraged peer-to-peer recognition, further strengthening team bonds. By creating a culture of gratitude and acknowledgment, companies can build a more motivated and cohesive workforce.
Continuous Feedback and Agile Development
In a fast-moving business environment, continuous feedback is essential for fostering adaptability and growth. Agile development practices, such as regular sprints and retrospectives, provide a structured framework for delivering ongoing feedback. This helps teams remain aligned and quickly address any issues that may arise.
In software development, teams often use daily stand-up meetings to share updates and blockers. Similarly, in other industries, implementing frequent check-ins can help maintain momentum and drive continuous improvement. The key is to ensure that feedback is actionable and delivered in a constructive manner, enabling employees to make immediate adjustments and improvements.
Building a Culture of Trust and Transparency
Trust and transparency are foundational to any successful organization. Leaders who communicate openly and honestly with their teams build a culture where employees feel secure and respected. This transparency extends to sharing company goals, successes, and even setbacks. When employees are kept in the loop, they become more invested in the organization's objectives and are more likely to collaborate effectively.
A case in point is a retail company that faced financial difficulties. Instead of hiding the situation from employees, the leadership decided to hold an all-hands meeting to explain the challenges and the steps being taken to address them. This openness fostered a united front where all employees worked together to overcome the hurdles, ultimately leading to the company's recovery.
Adaptive Learning and Development Programs
In a rapidly evolving job market, adaptive learning and development programs are crucial for maintaining a skilled workforce. These programs should be designed to be flexible, allowing employees to learn at their own pace and apply new skills in real-time. Online courses, workshops, and mentorship programs can be effective tools in fostering continuous learning.
Consider a financial services firm that introduced a “Learn at Lunch” series where employees could attend short, targeted training sessions during their lunch breaks. This initiative not only enhanced skills but also promoted a culture of continuous improvement without disrupting daily operations. By providing diverse learning opportunities, companies can ensure that their workforce remains relevant and competitive.
Embracing Technological Advancements
Technological advancements offer new avenues for enhancing employee engagement and productivity. Tools such as AI-driven analytics can provide deeper insights into employee performance and preferences, enabling more personalized and effective management practices. Additionally, collaboration platforms can facilitate better communication and streamline workflows.
For instance, a marketing agency leveraged project management software to track project progress and deadlines. This not only enhanced transparency but also allowed team members to collaborate more efficiently, reducing bottlenecks and increasing overall productivity. By integrating technology into everyday operations, companies can create a more dynamic and responsive work environment.
By embracing these strategies, organizations can create a work environment that not only retains top talent but also drives sustained excellence and growth. The emphasis on leadership, acknowledgment, continuous feedback, trust, adaptive learning, and technology integration will ensure that employees remain engaged, valued, and committed to the company's success.
Automated Transcript (Not Guaranteed to be Defect Free)
Mark Graban: Hi, welcome back to Lean Blog Interviews. I'm your host, Mark Graban. Our guest today is Hugh Alley. He's an author and a consultant. He divides his time between coaching senior operational leaders in continuous improvement and training frontline leaders in core supervisory skills. He's taught more than 1,000 frontline leaders and also helps design industrial facilities. He's an industrial engineer and has run three manufacturing and distribution firms, as well as a department in a government agency. Hugh, welcome. What kind of government agency was it? I'm just really curious.
Hugh Alley: Oh, the Workers' Compensation Board here in British Columbia.
Mark Graban: So in the category of “everything is a process,” everything involves people who can be coached, helped, and improved.
Hugh Alley: You know, I was running a department that handled occupational diseases, and the lead time between when a claim was filed and when a decision was made was 100 days when I started.
Mark Graban: Oh my.
Hugh Alley: And many of the adjudicators were really concerned about getting the right decision. I kept pointing out that the challenge for the workers was that they needed a decision so they could know what to do.
Mark Graban: Right. I know you have examples we'll talk about, including a manufacturing cycle time reduction story. So we'll hear more about the types of things you've been involved in and where you started. Coming back to your bio, you've written two books: Becoming the Supervisor: Achieving Your Company's Mission and Building Your Team and The TWI Memory Jogger (Training Within Industry TWI Memory Jogger). Hugh speaks frequently about supervision, quality, lean manufacturing, and Toyota Kata. He's joining us from Vancouver, Canada. I'll admit a mistake–this is actually take two because we got some minutes into the first attempt at the interview, and I realized I had misclicked and it was not recording. So, Hugh, thank you for your graciousness and thanks again for being here.
Hugh Alley: Well, I'm really happy to be with you, Mark. I'm looking forward to the conversation.
Mark Graban: Yeah. So we're going to talk about TWI. We'll make some connections to sports and hockey and coaching. Hugh suggested a topic I'm really happy to dive into. But first, I like to ask people their lean origin stories. Could you tell us yours? Where, when, and why were you introduced to Lean? How did it come about?
Hugh Alley: Well, Mark, my first introduction to Lean was pretty academic. I was working with a consulting firm at that point, and Lean was getting to be the fancy new thing that consulting firms talked about.
Mark Graban: Yeah.
Hugh Alley: So I read some stuff, but it didn't really land for me until I was working with a client in Alberta. They were faced with a lead time of about six months for their product–long enough that although people loved the product, they weren't willing to wait six months for it. We worked with them, and what I saw during that time was that they made a lot of little changes. That was one of the first “aha” moments for me: it's not one big thing; it's lots of little changes that you make, see how it goes, and so on.
Mark Graban: Was the word “Kaizen” being used? To me, that sounds like Kaizen–lots of little changes, not just one big Kaizen event.
Hugh Alley: We didn't use that language. We were in Alberta, in a small town, similar to rural Iowa. They were not sophisticated, but they were great people. Over eight months, we got their lead time down to six weeks. They went from the worst in the industry to the best in the industry. We ran into the problem you often do when you start applying these principles–suddenly the sales team is under pressure because you've worked down the backlog and now have this capacity.
Mark Graban: Right, you don't want to replace long lead times with overproduction.
Hugh Alley: No, no. So we helped the sales team figure out how they could sell their product faster. It was a really good introduction to Lean for me. Fast forward a few years–a friend invited me to join his company as their operations manager. At that point, I had that Lean experience and very much wanted to use it. What I discovered was that my supervisors and leads just didn't have the skills they needed. My “Spidey sense” told me there was some toxicity going on, but I couldn't put my finger on it right away. It was very clear I needed to improve the skills of my supervisors and leads. I tried a few things that didn't work. Then our mutual friend Tracy Defoe introduced me to the Training Within Industry (TWI) model, and we started with job relations. That was like a lightbulb moment for me–a revelation. It has driven much of my work since then.
Mark Graban: Yeah. Tracy, by the way, was a guest in episode 467 for people who want to go back and find that episode at leanblog.org/467. There have also been other episodes focused on TWI, like with Patrick Graupp. For those new to TWI, we'll try to catch you up on the terminology as we go. You mentioned job relations (JR). Is that typically the starting point, or was that specific to the culture you were dealing with as opposed to focusing on job instruction (JI) or job methods (JM)?
Hugh Alley: Yeah, I've done this for a lot of companies now, and I'm convinced that you either start with job instruction or job relations. In my TWI Memory Jogger, there's a section on how to pick which one to start with, and I've got a little decision tree that hinges on the toxicity level in the plant. If your people don't trust your supervisors, it doesn't matter how good your instructions are; they won't follow you. So, when I have a conversation with a potential employer or client, that's always my starting point–figuring out what the context is.
Mark Graban: Yeah, that probably happens in sports when a new coach gets hired.
Hugh Alley: No kidding.
Mark Graban: Is it a clubhouse or locker room issue? Is it a tactical or strategic problem? Do you need to overhaul the tactics or some of the players, or do you need to overhaul the way people are working together, like Ted Lasso? I know we're going to talk about hockey, but have you watched Ted Lasso?
Hugh Alley: Absolutely. Love it.
Mark Graban: Ted Lasso wasn't strictly about job relations, but he was focused on the relationships within the team. He didn't know the tactics.
Hugh Alley: That's right, and yet he was hugely effective. We see that in sports teams too. I would not want to be a sports coach because, of course, all the pundits are looking for improvement in the next game, and that's not always going to happen.
Mark Graban: Why do you say that, like game to game during a season? At some point, wouldn't you look for continuous improvement? There are some coaches I know, like the Buffalo Bills' head coach in the NFL, who actually uses the word “Kaizen” and talks about continuous improvement.
Hugh Alley: I can see if you've had a coach who created a setting of fear, and that coach is removed, then you might see an immediate shift in the way the team plays. I remember letting go of a supervisor who had created a culture of fear in his area. When he left, the whole plant seemed to collectively sigh, and new leaders emerged from that space–people who had been suppressed but now had room to grow. If you take out that bully effect, then I think you can see a fairly immediate shift. But if the issue is about how the team works together or underlying skills or a lack of a common view on how to play the game, it will take more time.
Mark Graban: Okay, so when a new coach is hired, sometimes the pundits want that immediate turnaround. Sometimes you do see that in different sports–a struggling team fires a coach early in the season, then turns things around and ends up in the playoffs or even winning a championship. But in other cases, like in college football, where you have more variety of offenses, a team like Georgia Tech, running an old-fashioned wishbone option offense, might bring in a coach who runs more of a Texas Tech passing offense. That's going to be a rough transition because they don't have the players for that system. There's a parallel to running an old-fashioned mass production system and then deciding to bring in a new head coach who's running Lean. I went through that at General Motors. That was a rough transition. You could argue one system was “better,” but the GM plant didn't have the supervisors or mindsets to lead in a Toyota way.
Hugh Alley: If your mindset is to run a thousand of these red front seats and then the left seats, it's hard to shift that mindset to doing smaller batches or just-in-time production.
Mark Graban: There's that shift from bully-type coaches, or like in GM, some coaches that constantly blame the players.
Hugh Alley: Yes, you hear that a lot.
Mark Graban: Or even passive-aggressively, saying, “Our schemes are fine; the players just need to execute.”
Hugh Alley: Exactly.
Mark Graban: I think back to the first plant manager I worked under at GM–there was so much blame. Then we got a new plant manager who had NUMMI training and experience. He started talking about team and said directly, “The era of blaming employees is over. We're going to lead differently. We are going to win together.” He wasn't exactly Ted Lasso, but he was establishing different expectations. You
can't replace all the players on a team.
Hugh Alley: Just as you can't replace all the people in a plant, you can't empty the plant and start over. You have to keep producing, no matter the challenges. Over time, though, you can create a context where people will either buy into the new culture or decide it's not for them.
Mark Graban: And they might transfer out or leave, like free agents. Manufacturing companies don't trade employees with each other.
Hugh Alley: No, they don't, but many employers still think they can just hire what they need off the street. However, the workforce today is much more diverse. Many people come in without the same set of mechanical skills that were more common 50 or 60 years ago. Back then, you could assume certain mechanical knowledge. Today, we can't assume that people have that experience. That's why job instruction is so critical now–it allows you to teach people who are smart and capable but may not have the experience for the specific tasks.
Mark Graban: It seems even more critical today. Some might say the TWI program is old and outdated, but control charts were created in the same era, and they're not outdated. The need for these methods may be even greater today.
Hugh Alley: I would say so. The demands for process conformance and product quality are higher today than ever.
Mark Graban: Let's step back to where this conversation started with an email you sent me. You were watching the NHL playoffs and your local Vancouver Canucks. They made it to the Western Conference Finals, right?
Hugh Alley: They did, but then they lost to Edmonton. The example that came to mind is Edmonton had a very effective power play throughout the season, not just in the playoffs.
Mark Graban: For people who don't know hockey, a power play is when a player gets sent to the penalty box, and the other team has a one-man advantage.
Hugh Alley: Yes, and they have two minutes to take advantage of that situation. But some teams only score on one out of 20 power plays.
Mark Graban: Like the Dallas Stars–they were 0 for 14 on their power play in the series against Edmonton. Zero for 15 is really bad.
Hugh Alley: If you can score 40%, you're doing great. Edmonton sometimes nudged over 50%. They practiced setting up two-on-one and three-on-two situations in front of the opposing net. That meant there was always an uncovered player who could get a clear shot. But they practiced this relentlessly.
Mark Graban: Is that a uniquely Edmonton power play strategy?
Hugh Alley: Not unique, but what was unique is they decided this was a skill they needed to master and made sure everyone on the team could execute it, whether it was the first line or the fourth line.
Mark Graban: Right, because when you watch hockey, it may seem like random skating, but you start to notice patterns in player positioning. Part of the key is knowing not where your teammate is, but where they're going to be.
Hugh Alley: Exactly. You see that in other sports too. When a team practices specific moves, they get good at executing them. What we don't see in business is “practice days,” which makes improvement harder compared to sports teams. But that's part of the job of frontline leaders–to help with coaching, experimenting, and finding better ways to work.
Mark Graban: That's an interesting thought–practice days. In Toyota plants, they have something like a training camp for new team members. They don't just hire someone and throw them into the game right away. They teach basic skills and, if needed, even provide strength training before they're fully integrated into the production process.
Hugh Alley: I have a client who makes a complex electronic product. It used to take them three months to bring new employees to the point where they could consistently produce good products. After learning job instruction, they shortened the learning process to four weeks. At the end of those four weeks, they could put new hires on the line, and they were producing at full speed.
Mark Graban: So they shortened the training lead time and eliminated bad product during that learning phase.
Hugh Alley: Exactly. Now they can get someone “into the game” faster without sacrificing quality.
Mark Graban: That's another lead time reduction story!
Hugh Alley: Yes, they've shortened the lead time to get the player into play, and they've eliminated the bad product that the previous approach had generated.
Mark Graban: Having a process for that is key, whether you call it practice time, training time, or whatever. You know, Toyota has that kind of built-in practice system. But I think it's a challenge for many organizations to find a way to create practice days. It's like in sports, where you increase capacity and suddenly sales is the constraint. Maybe in those moments, you can shut down for a period of time and use that as practice days to develop skills, learn new jobs, or work on continuous improvements.
Hugh Alley: There are two real opportunities for companies to create practice situations. One is when you make improvements that let you do a job with fewer people. I think of a client who was setting up parts for powder coating. He had a crew of five doing prep and painting. He changed the way the work was done, and suddenly he had one person free. So, now you've got that extra capacity, and that person can be moved into another role or let someone else take time for practice.
The second opportunity is with supervisors or frontline leaders. Part of their job, in some companies, is to provide relief or backup that allows someone to be out for a bit and get practice time. But we see in most North American companies that there are so few leaders, and the ratio of doers to leaders is so high that leaders are spread too thin. They have no ability to provide that relief or backup for their teams. I see that a lot in manufacturing, where I spend most of my time.
Mark Graban: That definitely happens in healthcare, too.
Hugh Alley: I thought it probably did. It's sad because if you've got a supervisor managing 80 people, they can hardly say hello to everyone, let alone do anything constructive. There's no opportunity for improvement in that situation. The worst I saw was a company that explicitly didn't care about that dynamic, which made for an incredibly uncomfortable work environment.
Mark Graban: So, how do you try to make the case that they should care? You can point to the success of other teams or organizations. In sports, for example, when one system or methodology wins, people want to copy it. They might say, “I don't fully understand it, but I want to copy their playbook or hire their assistant coaches.” But copying doesn't always pan out, whether in sports or manufacturing. Trying to emulate Toyota's playbook isn't easy. You have to create your own.
Hugh Alley: Absolutely. You need someone with vision who can see a better future for their part of the organization. If you're close to the employees but don't have much influence, it's tough. But by the time you're at a director level, you've got opportunities to do what I call “skunk works”–making little improvements at the edges. You can show that you've made a difference by freeing up one person or improving a process. Once you've freed up capacity, now you can really do something with it.
Mark Graban: Hopefully, no one swoops in and says, “Great, now you can lay that person off.” There's always a risk if everyone's not on the same page with the playbook.
Hugh Alley: Exactly. And that's a challenge in healthcare. You see short-term layoffs or “flexing.” Hospitals will send nurses home early if the patient census is down, even though their commute costs remain the same. Leaders often say, “We have to send people home,” but it's a choice. You could use that time for improvement, skill development, or practice, but instead, it's treated like a short-term layoff. It's profoundly disrespectful of employees. They've made a commitment to show up, and then they're sent home mid-shift.
Mark Graban: Yeah, it's like, “Go home early today, but please come back tomorrow.” And don't be disgruntled.
Hugh Alley: Exactly. We want to treat the patients nicely, but we're not always treating our people nicely.
Mark Graban: Right. It's interesting when you look at sports teams–they have a lot of coaches. In football, there's a defensive coach, an offensive coach, a special teams coach, a quarterback coach, and sometimes even a throwing coach.
Hugh Alley: Yes, and the quarterback coach may only have two or three quarterbacks to work with–that's a 3-to-1 ratio.
Mark Graban: True, but that's a critical role.
Hugh Alley: But still, if the offensive line doesn't do their job, it doesn't matter how good the quarterback is.
Mark Graban: Right. In football, it's on the head coach or the offensive coordinator to ensure the line is doing its job. There are many pieces of the puzzle–finding the right players, paying them well, and so on. Are you familiar with the book and movie Moneyball?
Hugh Alley: Oh, yes! It's wonderful. It's all about baseball.
Mark Graban: The Oakland A's found a competitive advantage by valuing players differently than other teams did. The problem is, once everyone else catches on to your approach, your advantage goes away. The Oakland A's haven't found another way to stay competitive since Moneyball. On the other hand, teams like the New York Mets always seem to have the highest payroll and yet still perform poorly. So, throwing money at the problem doesn't always guarantee success.
Hugh Alley: We see the same thing in industry. Companies choose their target pay range relative to the market. Some say, “We'll be in the 25th percentile of pay, and that'll give us a competitive advantage in labor costs.” But I wonder, if you're paying at the 25th percentile, what else are you offering to make up for it? I also know companies that do well targeting the 75th percentile–not the highest pay, but decent. Then they coach their people to achieve stellar performance.
Mark Graban: And they reduce turnover rates and the associated costs. There's also the culture piece–engaging people so they feel set up for success. That's where job relations, job methods, and job instruction come into play. If people feel respected and set up for success, they're less likely to leave for a competitor over a small pay difference.
Hugh Alley: Exactly. I had a company where people had started leaving due to the toxic culture. But after we implemented TWI, some of those people came back a few years later, taking $2 an hour less than they were making at their new jobs because they'd heard about the culture shift. The respect for people, giving credit when it's due, and addressing problems fairly–those things made a big difference. Even if people didn't always like the outcome, they felt they were treated fairly.
Mark Graban: Yeah. That's a great scenario–people willingly coming back even for less money because the work environment is better. It's similar to sports players taking lower contracts to join a winning team. They might already have made enough money, and now they want a chance to win a championship. Even though there isn't a literal championship ring for workers in a factory, being on a winning team still feels good.
Hugh Alley: Absolutely.
Mark Graban: One thing I appreciate about TWI is that it provides a structured methodology for coaching–how to become a better coach yourself. There are parallels between nursing, manufacturing, and sports. How do you help ensure that great players can become great coaches? Some players excel at coaching, while others don't. Ted Williams, for example, was one of the greatest hitters of all time but wasn't an effective hitting instructor. Could TWI help create a job breakdown for something like hitting .400 in a season?
Hugh Alley: In 1939, lens grinding was considered an art that took five years to learn. But the war effort required faster training. Within a couple of years, TWI was able to reduce that time to five days. So, yes, using job instruction, you could break down a skill like hitting and teach the key elements. It might not get everyone to .400, but it could help more people reach higher levels of performance.
Mark Graban: That's a great example. It shows that even “artistic” jobs can be broken down and taught more effectively with the right methods.
Hugh Alley: Exactly. It's about figuring out what those key elements are and breaking them down in a way that's teachable. And that's what TWI does–it helps people learn faster and become competent more quickly.
Mark Graban: I run into this a lot in industry. People say, “Oh, it takes too long to teach someone that,” or, “It's an art–you just need experience.” But when you break it down, you realize that experience alone doesn't guarantee competence. You can accumulate years of experience and still be doing things the wrong way. Like in baseball, everyone's talking about how strikeouts are up and batting averages are down. But pitching has improved because they've learned to break down the mechanics–teaching the right arm angle and specific techniques. It used to be that some guys just inherently threw hard, but now they're teaching almost everyone how to maximize their velocity.
Hugh Alley: That's a great point. It's the same thing with athletes like sprinters. Coaches break down their first few steps off the blocks. Every detail of their movement is refined. A friend of mine was a rowing coach, and he would say that, as long as you give him someone with decent stamina, he could turn them into an Olympic rower after 2 million strokes. It takes that long to perfect the stroke because it's that subtle.
Mark Graban: Wow.
Hugh Alley: But I bet that if you used the TWI model, you could cut that time down significantly. It's about getting the mechanics right and teaching those small details systematically.
Mark Graban: It really shows that there's more potential for improvement in jobs that people often write off as unteachable or just based on instinct.
Hugh Alley: Exactly. People underestimate how much you can break down a job and teach it in a structured way. Once you do that, people learn faster, and they can become good at things that previously seemed unattainable.
Mark Graban: And that ties back to what you were saying earlier about coaching. The difference between a great player and a great coach is often whether they've figured out how to break down what made them successful and teach it to others. Some of it might be conscious competence, but other parts are unconscious competence–things they've internalized so deeply they don't even know how to explain them.
Hugh Alley: That's true, and it's a big challenge in leadership as well. In industry, people are often promoted into leadership positions because they were good at their previous job, but they're not taught how to lead. They don't know how to break down what they've done well and teach others.
Mark Graban: Right. It's the classic scenario of promoting the best welder or best nurse to a supervisor role without giving them the training and tools to lead effectively.
Hugh Alley: Exactly. And without the right training, they might struggle. But with something like TWI, they can learn to coach and lead their teams better. It's a learnable skill, and it's something that anyone can improve at with the right guidance. That's why I think TWI is so powerful–it provides a framework for turning great workers into great leaders.
Mark Graban: I think that's a critical point. A lot of people think leadership is just about experience or personality, but with TWI, you can learn how to be a better leader in a systematic way. You can take someone with no formal leadership experience and help them become effective at leading a team.
Hugh Alley: Absolutely. And that's something I've seen over and over again in my work with clients. People who were promoted into leadership roles without the skills they needed were able to improve significantly once they started using TWI. It gave them the tools to succeed in those roles.
Mark Graban: So, it's not just about helping the individual leader–it's about improving the entire system. When you have better leaders, it improves the whole organization.
Hugh Alley: Yes, and that's the ultimate goal. When you develop better leaders, it has a ripple effect across the entire organization. People feel more engaged, more respected, and they perform better. It's a win for everyone.
Mark Graban: Well, I think that's a great note to wrap up on. Hugh, this has been a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Hugh Alley: Thank you, Mark. It's been a pleasure talking with you.
Mark Graban: For everyone listening, be sure to check out Hugh's books–Becoming the Supervisor and The TWI Memory Jogger. I'll include links in the show notes so you can learn more and put these ideas to use in your organization. Thanks again, Hugh.
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