Our guest for Episode #54 is John S. Toussaint, MD, the CEO emeritus of ThedaCare, and CEO of the ThedaCare Center for Healthcare Value. Dr. Toussaint is very well known for his leadership of the Lean efforts in the ThedaCare system, done under the heading of the ThedaCare Improvement System. ThedaCare has been profiled in the WSJ and many other articles about the quality and cost improvements they have achieved.
This is the first of two podcast discussions we recorded, so check back for the second by visiting and coming back to www.leanpodcast.org. In this podcast, Dr. Toussaint looks back at ThedaCare's accomplishments, reflects on their journey, and shares his advice for other hospitals.
For earlier episodes, visit the main Podcast page, which includes information on how to subscribe via RSS or via Apple Podcasts.
If you have feedback on the podcast, or any questions for me or my guests, you can email me at leanpodcast@gmail.com or you can call and leave a voicemail by calling the “Lean Line” at (817) 372-5682 or contact me via Skype id “mgraban”. Please give your location and your first name. Any comments (email or voicemail) might be used in follow ups to the podcast.
Episode Summary
In Episode #54 of the Lean Blog Podcast, Mark Graban talks with Dr. John Toussaint, CEO Emeritus of ThedaCare and CEO of the ThedaCare Center for Healthcare Value. Widely regarded as one of the foremost leaders in Lean healthcare transformation, Dr. Toussaint reflects on ThedaCare's journey applying Lean principles to dramatically improve patient safety, quality outcomes, and cost effectiveness.
Dr. Toussaint shares some of ThedaCare's most impactful results, including zero medication errors in a 19-month span and a 30% reduction in the cost of inpatient care. He details how the Collaborative Care model–which empowers nurses as process owners–helped transform roles, teamwork, and accountability within the hospital system. This episode highlights how Lean thinking isn't just about processes–it's a culture shift that starts with leadership.
The conversation explores the challenges of change management in healthcare, the critical role of executive participation at the Gemba, and the shift away from “shame and blame” toward systems thinking and continuous improvement. Dr. Toussaint also emphasizes the importance of leaders being teachers, not just decision-makers, and explains why cultural transformation in healthcare requires serious investment in learning and unlearning.
Whether you're a healthcare leader, Lean practitioner, or simply interested in improving patient outcomes, this episode offers powerful lessons from one of the industry's most influential change agents.
Quote Highlights
“Lean is really about managing all of the people side of things too. If you don't spend time on that, it just doesn't work.”
“As a leader, you need to be able to teach. And if you don't know what you're doing, you can't teach.”
“Whenever I went to the Gemba, I walked away with homework. That was my real work.”
“The problem is us. We have to change as managers if we're going to change how frontline workers think about their work.”
“This is not a project. This is a journey to change the culture of your organization.”
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Let’s work together to build a culture of continuous improvement and psychological safety. If you're a leader looking to create lasting change—not just projects—I help organizations:
- Engage people at all levels in sustainable improvement
- Shift from fear of mistakes to learning from them
- Apply Lean thinking in practical, people-centered ways
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Article on ThedaCare:
LINK
“ThedaCare’s approach is part of its commitment to eliminate waste and improve quality by drawing on techniques first developed by Toyota Motor Corp.
Those techniques rely heavily on employees finding ways to do their jobs more efficiently. At the same time, employees are unlikely to do that if it means they could lose their jobs.
“Nobody would get very enthusiastic about improvement in that world,” said Dean Gruner, a physician and chief executive and president of ThedaCare.”
[…] Sadly, Dr. John Toussaint is on on the list of nominees. […]