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My guest for Episode #525 of the Lean Blog Interviews Podcast is Christopher R. Chapman. He's an experienced agile coach and consultant with a background in software development and agile transformation.
Since founding Derailleur Consulting in 2010, he has guided teams and leaders in adopting agile frameworks like Scrum and Kanban while integrating applied systems thinking inspired by Deming and other thought leaders.
Christopher is also known for cultivating communities through initiatives such as #SystemsThinkingTO and for sharing his insights in his popular Substack newsletter, The Digestible Deming.
In this episode, Chris and I discussed our upcoming collaborative workshops–“From Noise to Knowledge, Executive Leadership Through Data Driven Insight”–scheduled for
We highlighted how the sessions will blend experiential learning, such as the Red Bead Experiment, with practical tools like process behavior charts to help leaders decode variation and improve decision-making. The conversation emphasized the Deming philosophy as a core framework, exploring how leadership behaviors and systemic practices directly impact team performance and overall organizational quality. We also noted the engaging social aspect of the workshops, mentioning optional outings to local MLB baseball games as an opportunity for continued dialogue.
The discussion then shifted to our personal journeys with continuous improvement, agile methodologies, and the evolution of leadership roles. Chris shared insights from his transition from software development to coaching senior management, focusing on moving beyond traditional, isolated team interventions toward a holistic, systems-oriented approach. We both underlined the need for leadership to embrace a mindset shift–recognizing that issues within teams often reflect broader organizational constraints. We also debated common pitfalls, such as misinterpreting data due to superficial analyses, and argued for using robust, statistical tools to establish meaningful insights, setting the stage for transformative change in management practices.
Questions, Notes, and Highlights:
- How do Deming's principles transform executive leadership and team performance?
- What key insights does the Red Bead Experiment offer for practical improvement?
- In what ways do process behavior charts enhance decision-making in complex systems?
- How can agile methodologies and Deming's philosophy be integrated effectively?
- What systemic issues underlie team challenges, and how should leadership address them?
- How can statistical process control complement traditional metrics in agile environments?
- What strategies enable leaders to shift from reactive problem-solving to proactive system improvement?
- How do extrinsic incentives impact collaboration and quality within teams?
- What methods best embed systems thinking into agile practices?
- How can workshop formats foster lasting changes in leadership mindsets?
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Actionable Takeaways from the Episode
Leverage Deming's Philosophy for Continuous Improvement:
Integrate Deming's management philosophies and methods, like the PDSA cycle, into daily practices to foster a continuous improvement culture. Understanding Deming's principles can help leaders and organizations conduct more effective experiments towards process improvement (e.g., “My aim with the afternoon session is to expose participants to the Deming management philosophy…”).
Utilize Process Behavior Charts to Analyze Data:
Implementing process behavior charts can help leaders and teams better understand the variations in their systems, which in turn improves problem-solving capabilities. Mark mentions how these charts aid in distinguishing between common cause and special cause variation, thus directing efforts towards meaningful improvements rather than reacting to normal fluctuations (e.g., “We'll learn how to create process behavior charts…help us evaluate attempts at improvement…”).
Adopt a Systems View in Leadership:
Approaching management from a systems perspective can significantly enhance team performance and organizational outcomes. Christopher emphasizes the importance of viewing organizations as systems, which can change how leaders approach teamwork and problem-solving (e.g., “We're going to talk about six new competencies for leadership…”).
Automated Transcript (Not Guaranteed to be Defect Free)
Mark Graban:
Hi, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host, Mark Graban. Today we are joined by Chris Chapman. He is joining us from the Toronto area. Chris and I are collaborating on two workshops that we're holding in the coming months in each of our cities.
Mark Graban:
That day-long event is titled From Noise to Knowledge: Executive Leadership Through Data-Driven Insight. We both share some common perspectives around the Deming philosophy, and we're going to talk about that today in the episode. I think it will give you a flavor of what we'll be doing in those workshops. You can register now for either city; there are links in the show notes–May 13 in Toronto or June 17 in Cincinnati.
Mark Graban:
We'll talk about this later, but we chose those dates because there are baseball games each evening. We picked a date when the Toronto Blue Jays are playing and a date when the Cincinnati Reds are playing. That serves as an optional outing to continue the conversation.
Mark Graban:
That's part of the intent here. So, Chris, welcome to the podcast. How's it going?
Christopher R. Chapman:
Really well. Thanks, Mark. I'm really happy to be here.
Mark Graban:
I'm happy we're doing the workshops together. We've collaborated on some things in the past, and I'm happy that we're collaborating across the border.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Yeah, yeah, it's been a while. It's been, what, six or seven years? Six years since you were here last?
Mark Graban:
I think almost six years. And I don't remember if it was spring or fall–I remember it was hockey season because we went to a Maple Leafs game.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Yeah, that was fun. That was a lot of fun. And it was a great workshop too. It was great.
Mark Graban:
Well, thank you. And we're going to be partnering up this time. We'll talk about it more later in the episode where we'll both be co-facilitating. I'm going to be maybe in the captain's seat in the morning with you as my first officer, and then we'll flip that in the afternoon. But I think it's really exciting to be doing this together.
Mark Graban:
But maybe first off, Chris, for listeners–people who know about my background–tell us a little bit about your background and the work you do today.
Christopher R. Chapman:
So, I've been a software developer and team coach, I guess you could say, for about 20 years. I originally started in the software development agile space, and over time–over 10 or 15 years–I began to morph that more into helping leadership work with their software teams, so they work better. Especially in the last five or six years, I've focused more on teaching management some of the ideas I got from Deming that are really tailor-made to help them help their teams perform better. I've had my own consultancy since 2011, and I've been working in this space ever since.
Christopher R. Chapman:
I like to say that what I started doing was 70% team and 30% leadership, and that's completely inverted now. As I came to learn more, it's now 70% leadership and 30% team. That's generally what I do. I do workshops, and I have personal coaching relationships with managers and leaders to help them learn the Deming management philosophy and understand how it's compatible with Agile–unlocking greater quality and capability.
Mark Graban:
And there's a parallel in our story. I'm an industrial engineer originally working in manufacturing. I also started my own company around 2010–I went full-time independent in 2011. With your background in software, even though I worked for a software startup full-time 20 years ago and have had a role with KaiNexus over the last decade or so, you've got the deep software experience. I've had experience in manufacturing and healthcare, so I think people from all of those industries–and beyond–are going to be welcome in the workshop. After all, in what setting do leadership and teams not apply, and in what workplace do statistical methods not apply?
Christopher R. Chapman:
Exactly. A lot of the problems we believe are unique actually manifest in similar ways. When I engage with leaders, the first question often comes up: “Our team is broken–fix them.” And I understand almost immediately that the team isn't broken; they're just the high watermark–the barometer for how things are working around them. So some of the first things I do are observe the team. I don't introduce any changes or tamper with them; I want to understand how they work together, what struggles they're encountering. Almost all the time, the problems they have are due to dependencies that flow out into the larger organization. I recall an engagement about four years ago where a director of software delivery said, “The team is broken.” He said they weren't T-shaped enough–they didn't have skills beyond their deep specialization and weren't helping each other. I said, “Okay, let's go find out.” What I found was that the teams were saddled with the inability to say no. They were overloaded, so they had no time to cooperate or collaborate. It was just about getting things done.
Christopher R. Chapman:
So, some of the first things I taught them was to gently say “no, not right now” and to limit their work in progress so they could start moving the work product through their system. One team did spectacularly well with this; the other did not. It was a great ad test.
Mark Graban:
Yeah.
Christopher R. Chapman:
But you know, these are the kinds of situations that occur. Then it becomes about working with leadership to say, “Here's how you stop this problem from happening again. You may not be aware of how you are overloading or overstressing the team. Here's how you can get beyond that.”
Mark Graban:
Yeah, and that's a good example of how systemic policy decisions–or maybe it's not even a policy, just what evolves–can create an environment where saying “no” might be punished, where you're labeled as not a team player. People will do more of what gets rewarded and avoid what gets punished. I've seen similar observations in my own experiences. When leaders blame the team for being broken, they're really noticing a symptom of a more systemic issue.
Mark Graban:
I've even been called a “boss hater” by some for having a problem with management. I love great leaders, those I've worked for or interviewed. But Dr. Deming would say that senior leaders are most responsible for the system. So, ideally, leaders should reflect on the role they play. It's easier to blame others–to punch down and blame the organizational victims–but it's fair to scrutinize management practices.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Yes.
Mark Graban:
To think about what can be done better doesn't mean everybody is going to change.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Yeah, it's a pretty common pattern. And that's why I focus my coaching for managers and leaders on bridging the gap between the competencies that got them where they are and where they need to be. If they want to reach higher levels of quality and performance, the old competencies become insufficient–they may even become a drag. In other words, good people get trapped in their own bad practices, and we need to help them move beyond that.
Mark Graban:
Yeah. That makes me think of another question–when you're talking about the team, is that more focused on helping frontline employees improve their work, perhaps in isolation from broader leadership decisions, or does it go deeper?
Christopher R. Chapman:
Well, typically, engagements start with the notion that “the team is broken–fix them.” But I know immediately that the team is just reflecting the larger system. So I begin by observing them, building relationships, and understanding their struggles. Almost invariably, the issues stem from dependencies that flow from the larger organization. I remember one engagement where the director insisted the team was broken because they weren't T-shaped. I discovered that the real issue was that the team was overloaded and couldn't say no. I taught them to set limits on their work in progress, which helped one team significantly, while another struggled. The lesson is clear: leadership must address the systemic causes.
Mark Graban:
Yeah. And it makes me think of how management practices can unintentionally set up a system where people are punished for saying no. It's a fascinating insight into the relationship between individual behavior and systemic issues.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Exactly. That's why I always emphasize that when you remove the team's control, everything falls apart. The system's health depends on leadership decisions. It took me a while to realize that the issues were bigger than the team itself, which is why I shifted my focus more toward leadership.
Mark Graban:
Yeah. Let's talk a little bit more about that. What are some of the key leadership challenges you've encountered that made you shift focus?
Christopher R. Chapman:
One of the first things I notice is that leaders are often given a set of competencies that work well to get them to a certain level, but then there's a huge gap between where they are and where they want–or need–to be. The competencies that got them here become a drag. If they want to reach a higher state of performance, they need to change the way they work. They're essentially good people trapped in outdated practices, and leadership needs to break that cycle.
Mark Graban:
Yeah. I think that resonates with a lot of people. I recall you mentioning that initially, you were 70% team and 30% leadership, but now it's reversed. That shift clearly marks your evolving focus.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Absolutely. And that's what I bring to my workshops: practical tools and frameworks for leaders to understand how to step back and view the system as a whole. When you can see the big picture, you're much better equipped to diagnose and address the root causes of problems.
Mark Graban:
I love that. Let's switch gears a bit and talk about your Deming origin story. Can you tell us how you first encountered Deming and how that influenced your work?
Christopher R. Chapman:
Sure. My gateway drug was Goldratt. Around 2007, I was at a meetup and got introduced to Goldratt–many of you know him as the author of The Goal–and his ideas about constraints in systems. I was already beginning to view systems differently, but I hadn't yet connected that with Agile and software development. Then, around 2009 or 2010 on Twitter, I started noticing your name, Mark, in posts about lean healthcare. I was hungry for knowledge about lean practices in any discipline. We got into a dialogue on Twitter, and you asked if I had read anything by Deming. I sheepishly admitted that I knew a bit, and then I dove into The New Economics and the 14 points. I began studying and exploring more about Deming, attending workshops and even co-facilitating sessions–like the Red Bead Experiment workshops, which became very popular.
Christopher R. Chapman:
I eventually started facilitating the Red Bead Experiment at meetups and conferences, and later with leaders, such as directors and managers. Around 2017, I attended a Deming Institute workshop in Tipp City, Ohio. That experience was transformative–I met people who truly understood Deming's philosophy, and it set me on a path toward deeper learning. I have to give a special shout-out to Dr. Bill Bellows, whose phenomenal material really unlocked these ideas for me. In many ways, you can hear Bill through me today.
Mark Graban:
I'm glad to have played a part in that journey. It's amazing how a conversation on Twitter can set off such a transformation.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Indeed. It's been quite the journey–thanks to early exposure, some great conversations, and a lot of independent study.
Mark Graban:
Reflecting on our conversation about Deming, it reminds me of my own origin story–exposure to Deming through my dad, who was an electrical engineer at General Motors. Even though I was young and didn't fully grasp it, a copy of Out of the Crisis on his bookshelf sparked my interest. Later in college, as I studied industrial engineering, I began to see how Deming's ideas applied, even if they set me apart from mainstream thinking.
Mark Graban:
It's interesting how these early influences, whether through family or colleagues, shape our view of management. Deming's ideas are both profound and practical. They force you to see that many of the common management practices are fundamentally flawed, even if they're deeply entrenched in business culture.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Exactly. I often say that once you start using Deming's “decoder glasses,” you begin to see the real reasons behind organizational issues. It's like looking at a system with new eyes–you notice the normal variation versus what truly deviates from the norm. That insight is incredibly powerful for diagnosing and fixing problems.
Mark Graban:
I love that analogy. And it perfectly captures the essence of what we're trying to do with these workshops: give leaders practical tools to move from noise to knowledge.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Absolutely. The goal is to help leaders understand the data, see the patterns, and avoid the trap of superficial analysis–like mistaking two data points for a trend.
Mark Graban:
Right. And that reminds me of a classic example–the Red Bead Experiment. It teaches you that sometimes the fluctuations you see are just normal variation, not a sign of something wrong. Instead of jumping into root cause analysis for every uptick or downtick, you learn to understand what is statistically normal.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Exactly. By presenting data over time with tools like process behavior charts, you can distinguish between common cause variation and special cause variation. That understanding helps leaders focus on real, systemic issues rather than reacting to every minor fluctuation.
Mark Graban:
And that's the real power of this approach–moving from a reactive, blame-focused mindset to one that's proactive and systems-oriented.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Precisely. And that's what I hope to convey in my session during the workshop–providing leadership with a framework to change their thinking and manage their organizations with a true systems view.
Mark Graban:
Great. Before we wrap up, let's recap a bit of what people can expect from the workshop. In the morning, we'll focus on topics from my book, Measures of Success, and explore lessons from Deming, Wheeler, and the Red Bead Experiment. We'll dive into creating and interpreting process behavior charts–bring your own data if you can–and learn how to monitor performance over time.
Mark Graban:
Then in the afternoon, Chris will take over. Chris, can you give our listeners a preview of your session?
Christopher R. Chapman:
Sure. My session is designed to build on the morning's learning by exposing participants to the Deming management philosophy. I'll discuss six new competencies for leadership, provide some “leadership cheat codes” to prime your mind for a systems view, and tie it back to the Red Bead Experiment to pull the lessons forward. It's a condensed crash course aimed at preparing you to apply these ideas immediately in your organization.
Mark Graban:
That sounds excellent. We'll go from the philosophical foundations to practical, actionable takeaways. We want leaders to understand that the goal isn't just to react to data, but to manage their systems in a way that creates lasting improvement.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Exactly. It's about learning to distinguish between normal variation and true shifts in the system–so you know when to run an experiment, when to intervene, and when it's just the system doing its thing.
Mark Graban:
And to add a bit of fun, we've scheduled our workshops on days when there are baseball games–Toronto Blue Jays in Toronto and Cincinnati Reds in Cincinnati. That gives you an optional chance to continue the conversation in a relaxed setting after the workshop.
Mark Graban:
So, for anyone interested, check the registration links in the show notes: May 13 in Toronto and June 17 in Cincinnati. We're excited to share an interactive, engaging day that moves from noise to knowledge.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Oh, it's going to be fun. Yep.
Mark Graban:
Chris, thanks again for joining me today and for sharing your insights.
Christopher R. Chapman:
Thanks for having me, Mark. It's been a pleasure.
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